Chris Voss is the CEO of the Black Swan Group and the author of "Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It." He has previously worked as a hostage negotiator for the FBI. Voss reveals to David Lin, anchor for Kitco News, who he considers to be the best negotiator of all-time and why these life lessons are essential to success in business, politics, and one's personal life.
Kitco news special coverage of the future. Blockchain summit is brought to you by cook finance, a revolution in deep by asset management.
I'm here with Chris Voss, CEO of the black Swan group and author of the well-renowned book. Never split the difference, Chris. Welcome to Kitco. Thanks man. Thanks Brandon pleasure. Pleasure to have you here in Dubai. Future blockchain summit that you and I are going to be talking about blockchain per se.
We're going to be talking about negotiations, how that applies to business your everyday life. And of course, nation states. Many of our viewers want to know what's going on in the geopolitical stage states. Let's talk about your negotiation strategy. I know you've given talks about how that affects your everyday life.
Let's just start from the top optimal strategies to negotiate, because I know you've talked about it. Um, we're negotiating every day with our spouse. With our loved ones with our boss, with our clients. How does that play out? Yeah. You know, I mean, it sounds counterintuitive, but here the other side out first, and it's tactical empathy is what we talk about in the book.
But in empathy in general, most people think empathy is just putting yourself in the other person's shoes. Now that's only the beginning. Once you put yourself in their shoes, then tell them. What you think their perspective is? What, what they see, what they feel. So take the next step after you put yourself in their shoes.
See if you can repeat back to them, how the world looks to them, let them feel her. It sounds really counterintuitive, but people don't really buy that. You understand until you showed them and you show them by basically repeating it back to them. And you'll be astonished at how quickly that accelerates your, your interrupting.
It sounds to me like it might be a personality trait that the best negotiators you're suggesting could be good empathizers. Of course not everybody. Is, would that be, would that be a true statement and make that some people are just naturally more gifted and negotiating than others? Well, I I'm I'm of the belief that there's nothing natural that it's all learned.
Like when we're born, we're pretty much a blank slate. Uh, what did you learn along the way now? I realize that like, you can't learn to be seven feet tall. All right. You know, you can't teach me how to be. Uh, American professional football lineman. I'm never going to be that big, but the rest of the stuff you can, anybody could probably learn it.
I'm a big believer that are you going to do is be willing to learn. Right? Well, let's talk about a real life example. Then let's talk about negotiating with a client. For example, you're striking a deal you're deciding between you're just, you're, you're deciding to buy out the company you're deciding on the value.
Right. You know, I'm the buyer, you're the seller. Let's talk about the value. How much should I be paying? How much should you be? Yeah. Well, my, my value is really going to be based on my perception of how the future is going to work out. So if I'm buying from you, you're going to be taking the same perspective I need to get out of your head, what you're seeing.
And that's the whole point about empathy. I'll start guessing out loud. What's in your head. You're either going to tell me I'm right. Or the really funny thing about it is. When you, when I'm wrong, you correct me and put me on the right track. Then that creates collaboration. And then ideally we both ended up with a better deal.
And of course, negotiating with your boss and the rage. That's something that most people have to encounter or do every once in a while. How does that, well, don't ask your boss for more money. Ask your boss for better future. No salary pays your bills, but it doesn't build your career. And your boss is going to help you build your career.
If you're trying to make the company better, how do you do that? This simple phrase. How can I be guaranteed to be involved in projects that are critical to our strategic future? Now, all of a sudden your boss goes, wait a minute. You want to help everybody and me. That automatically makes you more valuable.
Plus it gives you the opportunity to work on a really important projects, which will either accelerate your career in the company or give you such a great resume. You can go someplace else. Interesting. Now, John Nash won the Nobel prize in economics for his work on game theory, the Nash equilibrium, similar to the prisoner's dilemma indicate that.
Compromise every day and the negotiations we take the second best option for me. You take the second best option for you. Neither of us are optimally benefiting ourselves, but we come to some, some sort of compromise. Is that true? Have you observed that? Does that fury actually play out in real life? Well, why do people compromise?
Principally? They're trying to eliminate or minimize combat. But everybody kind of agrees on long-term that combat in negotiations is a bad idea. You got a real bad, quick, downward spiral, over aggressive negotiations over a winner. Take all negotiators. If you're a winner, take all negotiator and everybody to deals with you.
Lose. Nobody wants to deal with. So you get to compromise is the default mode to try to minimize the pain. The problem is that's a slow word, downward spiral. Now collaboration is the next step. You don't see collaborative negotiations, very many places. So people just don't know how to do it, but as soon as you learn how to do it, that's how you get into the upward spiral.
How do we make a better deal? That's what I'm saying. Let's talk about, uh, negotiations on the global stage. Now nation states of course, are negotiating every day with. One of the fog badly. Okay. Let's why do you think they're doing a badly that's let's talk about baskets, arguments back and forth. Most world leaders, you know, we got to sing in the United States are preaching to the choir.
You know, they want to, they want to say things to people that come to their rallies, jump up and down and cheer and scream for the problem is the people that come to their rallies. Aren't who they're negotiating with that. Those are the supporters they're on their side. But then it gets into a shouting match.
And that's how you get into compromise. The politicians have compromised was great. Every government would, every citizen will be proud of their government. You don't ask an American, you think your politicians are doing a great job as a matter what, on what side of the aisle they're on. They're going to say no, they're doing a horrible job, right?
That's what compromise kitchen. And very few people understand that expressing the other side's point of view actually makes better deals. Well, we see this in the white house all the time. They're disagreeing on a lot of things, a death ceiling, you know how to fund the government, the infrastructure bill.
We're seeing, you know, a lot of examples playing out on both sides of the aisle. They're having disagreements, but what do they actually want for each other for themselves? How do they come to a middle ground? Are they even doing a good job in coming into a middle ground? Because some people say they're not, and they're just stalling.
Everything, not, you know, they've never really done it. Uh, Um, and it is a stall and I think we're ideally we're coming out of the combative slowly coming out of the combative political environment that we had in the United States for the last four years, I think Biden, uh, president Biden, he's he doesn't like combat like the, the one thing he did that I really liked recently was he had to come out in support of, um, the, uh, the Genesis.
Uh, you know, what's known as the genocide in Turkey, over the, um, the Dr. Meetings. You know, that's been something that's been lurking there for a long time. They, no politicians really want it to come post it. Now, when he finally said something in support of what he did while was leader of Turkey knew what was coming, he didn't let him get caught off guard.
And it was an extremely, it's an extremely emotional issue for Turkey. Now he's got a weight into this, but he doesn't let the political leaders on the other side of the table, get blindsided by. Here and out of the blue. So the leader of Turkey and forgive me for not being able to, uh, say his name properly, I'd embarrass myself by mispronouncing it.
The world was really surprised at how muted his responsibilities, because president Biden didn't let him get caught off guard. He knew it was coming. So that was actually a respectful way to approach a very emotional international issue. I'm encouraged that he did that. Well, what do you think? I mean, just on that topic and we'll move on.
What do you think was going on through Biden's head? When he withdrew from Afghanistan? There was tremendous pressure on both sides to either stay or leave. Well, it, you know, it become a downward spiral for the. So the, the U S had to, I'm not saying that we did a well, but ultimately the U S has got to get out of AF Afghanistan.
We got no business being in that country. We've known that for a long time, have haven't really been able to extricate ourselves from that nobody in the region really wants us there. You know, what's the America, what's America doing in another part of the world, trying to tell a country how to run themselves, you know, overall, that's a bad idea now, how do we get out of that situation?
Particularly with the previous administration putting 5,000 combatants back on a battlefield, people are surprised that the government vac Afghanistan and the military folded up so quickly when a previous administration dropped 5,000 combatants back on a battle. What have we expect those guys to do as a result, if that, that kind of a change.
I mean, it was a bad situation that had to be addressed at some point in time. Nobody's said it wasn't supposed to be done. The argument is over when and how was done. Not that it needed to be done. One of the largest geopolitical risks today for investors at least is the tension between us and China, the next rising global superpower economy, whatever you want to do.
I think the Chinese government have indirectly where maybe even directly stated that they want to supplant the U S and both political and economic power. Of course the Americans don't want that to happen. So we've got a bit of a stalemate. If you want to call it that if you were in the white house, how would you be negotiating with Gigi ping on economic, political, or even military issues?
You know, I'd actually be talking more to, to my top level business people, because at the end of the day, everybody wants to feed their family. They want a better life for themselves and their children. They want a nicer house. They want better, better education for the kids. You take that approach, you know, a business oriented approach to solving world problems.
He's through prosperity. Then it changes the game. I think get out of this combative. My government's better than your government. Our form of our form of government by definition is morally superior to yours. Get out of that conversation and get into economic welfare. Not what happened in the last four or five years, we saw Trey wars.
We saw tariffs. You saw bans and restrictions on both sides. I mean, that's, how do we get out of that? You gotta be willing to take the first step. Now, do we have any politicians that are willing to take the first step economically? You know, it was crazy as was it will. Trump used to always say, make America great again, you know, he, he once said make a rank.
It was like, if you guys sit down and cut a deal with us while we're where we're not fighting each other militarily, I don't have a problem with you guys prospering, economically. If you're not taking money away from us, there's enough wealth to go around in this world. If politicians will just see it that way, let's apply your negotiation tactics to this example.
So if I'm negotiating with somebody in real life, there's always a, my new chance of violence or physical confrontation. I mean, it's very small, but it's nonsense. That chance is larger on the political stage when you're dealing with military powers, is there a chance that China and the U S could actually be in a military conflict because negotiations go sour?
My personal opinion, I don't think China has any interest in a military conflict. They've got economic ambitions, so does every other country in the world. Historically, they viewed, they haven't been ambitious militarily in their history outside of China. China's not sailing boats across the ocean and set up colonies.
And in other countries, they are very protective of what they see as their own political, uh, their own geographical turf, who isn't, you know, as soon as we started taking a, looking at people through a little bit different lens, how do they see the world? I think a lot of this becomes a lot easier to understand.
Now in your career, based on the people you've worked with and observed who was probably the best negotiator in business politics, or just your everyday life and what do they do, right. I think one of the, excuse me, sorry, based on what they've accomplished, based on where they started and where they. I think Oprah Winfrey is one of the greatest negotiator.
What does she do? I mean, first of all, look at her, her net worth and look at what are her demographics, black female, I think from Chicago, starting a low-income environment. She started with less than zero. And where is she today? Plus the other thing that a lot of people miss about Oprah is who do you know that it's had an argument with her publicly that's lasting Oprah's into long-term relationships.
She's into collaborating with people. There's no way that people haven't been unhappy with her. There's no way that she hasn't been unhappy with other people. Do you hear about it? She knows that open air arguments, leaving people feel bruised is a bad idea. So she doesn't do it. I'm really. With what she's accomplished in her life.
She should be at the blockchain conference now she'd do well, you get free Bitcoin, you get Fitbit, but everybody gets free bit point. I, yeah, that's, that's a very interesting take. How do we apply her life lessons to somebody who wants to succeed in their business career? You know, I'm actually in the black Swan group, we've got a, we've got a rule.
We called the Oprah rule, which is the last impression is the lasting. And I heard this directly from one of the people that a friend of mine is Cindy Morris. She's been Oprah's Booker for 19 years. I met her in LA, was sitting around talking about this. This is most entertainment industry. Uh, people in an illimal on a taxi when they want something from you, they treat you like, like gold, a nice to, as soon as they have it, you know, they forget about you.
Excuse me. Oprah's rule was in an limo out in Alabama. No matter what happened with her, everybody, especially when they left, had to feel that they had to feel they were treated with respect. And the highest thing. And I, I have been told that in several pointed conversations that Oprah's had with high, highly volatile celebrities, her last line has always been understand that no matter what happens, I will always love you.
And I will always support you. The last impression is a lasting impression, no matter how combative the interaction. Is if you finish with genuine positive regard, that's how you end up a billionaire. Wow. Right. And finally, I know you've talked about this before on your own shows and your own interviews and speeches, but I, I know you've worked with the FBI.
How do you know that somebody is lying? You know, it isn't that hard to tell that somebody is lying. The hard part is getting them out of it. You know, people have a tendency to lie defensively. They don't know how to tell the truth because the truth is harsh. That's why there's a counterfeit. Yes. Do you want to do this deal?
Yeah, really? When I want to know more about. So, how do you make people feel safe so that they can tell you the truth? They actually tell you to take your time as a general rule, somebody's lying. The more they talk, the more they try to convince you, we call that the Pinocchio effect. You know, Pinocchio's nose got longer.
Every time he told a lie, well, the more people talk, they know they're lying. So they work harder to convince you. So it tends to. With someone who's. The CBU, the harder they work to convince you, because they're worried that you're not going to believe them because they know they're lying. It's not that hard to spot a lie.
The hard part is if you're lying just out of sheer defensive, it's not because you're trying to cheat me because you're afraid to tell me the truth. How do I get you to tell me the truth and what it really boils down to is if I'm not going to hurt you with the. If I'm just trying to collaborate with you to get a better deal for both of us, then it becomes okay for you to tell me the truth.
Sure. Now I'm not a psychologist. I didn't take psychology in university. Okay. Do people lie a lot? Is it part of human nature to tell their truth? People lie a lot defensively. Like they, they don't know how to say no gem, or if there's a difficulty there, they're worried about disappointing. The other person they're worried about disappointing them.
They're worried that they're going to get angry. You know, the, the phrase, the white lie, you know, you're telling somebody something that's not the truth to protect them and your view trying to protect them or the relationship in the sense of. As crazy as it sounds and said exactly it trying not to hurt the other person because they think the truth hurts and they don't realize that the line is going to hurt much more longterm.
So getting people out of that is really getting people to trust each other. Is that an important skill to have to be a successful politician business person to try to get the truth out of somebody? Something you'd advocate for, well, a successful politician. It's almost an oxymoron, right? You know, how many, six, what are you looking for there, but a successful business person.
Yeah, it really does tell the truth. I did an interview with mark Cuban recently, you know, um, Woltz involved in, uh, another social media platform called fireside. He's an investor and a founder and the people that are running it are friends of mine. So I interviewed him and we talked about being honest, and we talked about telling them.
And he says, yeah, because I want people to continue to do business with me and I want them to make another deal. And not only do I want them to make another deal with me, I want to accelerate the deal-making process. So you got to tell the truth so that you make the deal in any of this side, trust you.
And the next time out the deal process is accelerating. So really learning to tell the truth is a success trait. Okay. And finally, before I let you go, Chris, there's a lot of young people watching our show gen C's millennials. Perhaps if you could, I know life is vice it's pretty a rod, but if you could go back and talk to your younger self, let's say your 20 year old.
Was here at this conference today in 2021. What would you tell him? What would you tell you about. Yeah. You know, um, take it easy on yourself. You know, don't be afraid of failure. Every mistake is a learning accelerator. And actually, you know, you know, what is an old guy like me know that you're going to learn.
There's no such thing as arriving. You know, I used to think when I was younger that I would achieve a level of success and that I would arrive. And I, you know, I don't know where we get this idea, but you know, you get to a place and you made it. And as long as life remains interesting, you never arrived.
It's always getting more and more interesting and you're going to make mistakes. And every mistake that you make, if you embrace it is actually going to give you greater capabilities. Chris, there was an absolute honor to have you on the show. I really appreciate everything you've said. Thank you for your time.
My pleasure. Thanks for having me on. Thank you for watching kick news. We'll have more for you. So. Kitco news special coverage of the future. Blockchain summit is brought to you by cook finance, a revolution in deep by asset management.
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